CaribbeanHindus@yahoogroups.com presents: 

This discussion will subsequently be published on www.caribbeanhindu.com

Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:30:17

This discussion began with a single question posed by a subscribing member: As if Hindus have not learnt anything from the past, we continue to sing:   "Ishwar Allah tero naam."  When shall Hindus wake up? Clearly, something is wrong with us Hindus, or perhaps, with someone up there.

Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:18:49

I agree with __Ji’s sentiments on the issue of Hindus singing "Ishwar Allah tere naam." But I want to add here that I have never heard a Guyanese Hindu sing this line as it is. Perhaps some do, but I never heard it. I have heard "Allah" replaced by "Shiva" on every occasion that I visited Mandirs where this bhajan was sung in the New York-Guyanese community. Is this so with all Guyanese Hindus? In Trinidad Hindus make no distinction, but I don't believe that it is popular in Mandirs. I believe the Guyanese Hindus have been more alert on this issue and it is a good example to follow. No Muslim sings this bhajan. It is a legacy of Gandhiji that he left us Hindus singing "Allah" through this bhajan in our Mandirs, while Muslims never sing it in their Masjids or religious/cultural occasions.

Wed, 17 Apr 2002 05:27:37

This issue has to extend beyond just this song. It is a trait amongst Hindus to bring in “willy-nilly” things within Hindu religious traditions. Religious icons, ideas, etc. from all directions... this characteristic of Hindus may well be a feature of its broadmindedness... and the impulse which may have been initiated by such noble aspirations like ... AA NO BHADRAA KRITAVO YANTU VISHVATAH - LET NOBLE THOUGHTS COME FROM ALL SIDES.

In Trinidad, at a cremation site -- shanti teerram -- symbols of Cross and Crescent were put alongside the symbol of Om... the Crescent was later rubbed off by some Muslims who may have objected and rightly so! I guess Islamic symbols would have been seen in Mandirs alongside symbols of Christ, if not for the fear of objections from Muslims too. I see many Mandirs using pictures of Jesus Christ.

Then there is this very vexing situation of opening Mandirs to those who openly declare they are not Hindus... like Sai Baba organization... often the Mandir becomes over run by Sai devotees and recently there was some directive not to have Hindu prayers and offerings within Sai Baba operations... all this comes from the Sai organization. I do not know if Sai Baba sanctions this! How must this be handled?

 Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:03:02

 In Guyana, since this bhajan became popular we replaced ALLAH with BRAMHA.

Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:55:40

 NAMASKAAR. I am posting my second note on this issue. (1) The theological implications are important. This is why we have to be guarded in what we use consciously and unconsciously borrow from other religions. Hindus need not feel 'bad' about this decision. It is not any onslaught on Christianity and Islam. It is just that Hindus have to be Hindus in matters of practicing Hindu Dharma. (2) The source of this problem may well be symbolized by this verse interpolated in the famous bhajan, which carried Allah in the Mandir and during our religious activities. But it is not the only source. (3) Other sources come from the Pandits and lecturers who replace Hindu theological concepts with Christian words, which mean different things...and this comes from the singhaasana – concepts of heaven, hell, etc. These words even come from the mouths of world famous Hindu preachers and leaders. (4) Sai Baba bhajans are also carriers of non-Hindu theological words and ideas and are sung innocently in Mandirs.

Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:00:48

Namaskar! I am glad, that with respect to the "Ishwar-Allah" bhajan, which illustrates the ideological backwardness propagated by some Hindus, at least some of us are bold enough to correct it. __Jj informed us that in Guyana Allah is replaced with Brahma. However, even in Guyana, "Ishwar-Allah tero naam..." is still sung in many Mandirs and during rituals at home.

 I think __Ji's observations are very poignant. The Hindu theological discourse, by and large, emanate from Pandits in Mandirs and during the conduct of rituals for yajmans. Now, unless I am living on another planet, the theological expositions of a vast majority of our Pandits propagate this backwardness. This is a sickness! A vast majority of Pandits hardly ever utilize the powerful messages and story lines of our Shastras to motivate Hindus to take a stand for Dharma -- by removing lines such as "Allah..." -- to stand up for Hindu human rights; Hindu economic rights; Hindu political rights, etc. I am aware that many of the Pandits are not competent enough to expound on many issues. Hindu society needs to find a way to educate ANYONE who wants to get into the Panditai profession. In this regard, the individuals who have sacrificed at the altar of Hindu education must be the example to follow.

I don't think Hindu lecturers are a problem. Most lectures by people who are not purohits that I have listened to were very inspiring. For example, in NY there is a group that organize a Vichar Manthan lecture almost once a month and the people invited to speak at that forum are qualified and dynamic speakers - so far both from Guyana and Bharat.

Another problem associated with this theological backwardness is the salient propagation and promotion of brahmanism for the conduct of rituals by some Pandits and some Hindu organizations. However, much progress has been made in this area and many of the most popular Pandits today are not so-called brahmins. I think in the year 2002, the propagation of brahmanism is equal to theological backwardness.

If one reads, it is not difficult to see this theological backwardness in the print media as well. For example, we have a book written by a Pandit who openly advocates Brahmanism; in his idiotic zeal he calls some of his fellow "brahmin Pandits" Archbishop and so forth and so on. For example, Pandit Deodat Sharma was the "...Archbishop of the Guyana Maha Sabha..." Un-Hindu concepts like heaven and hell reigns supreme by many of the Pandits. At a recent funeral service in NYC I witnessed a group of young bright Hindus confront a Pandit immediately after he concluded the last rites at the ground. These Hindu young men, all in college, were angry at the Christianized way the rituals were conducted and demanded the Pandit tell them where in our books is the concept of heaven and hell. Needless to say, the Pandit was visibly shaken by this encounter.

So my friends, theological backwardness by Pandits comes in many forms. In NYC, this theological backwardness has been used to satisfy sexual lust as well. And a few of these "brahmin" Pandits are now serving hard time in prison for this problem. In fact, some Hindus are calling for an investigation of Pandits for possible sexual exploitations of people who trust (trusted) them.

Yes, indeed, organizations such as Sai Baba organizations and the Brahma Kumaris have also propagated this virulent strain of theological backwardness. Even though Sai Baba uses the Bhagvat Gita and all the symbols are clearly Hindu, I have heard Sai devotees saying that they are not Hindus; that they are beyond Hinduism. Very strange indeed!

So how do we tackle this theological backwardness? I think intellectuals more than anyone else need to play a critical role. This is what Swami Vivekananda advocated. I also believe that we need to move away from our own self-centered world of position and authority in our small Mandir, or group, or organization and do what is in the best interest of the Hindu community. 

I think that we can learn from organizations that are very proactive in this regard, and the intellectuals and organizations that gave a platform to Hindu intellectuals to orient the younger Hindu minds in this direction. 

Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:36:33

Namaskar. I share the thoughts and concerns of __Ji on the way our Dharma is being 'promoted' (sic) by much of our Pandits. What else can be expected? Our people have been indoctrinated in a certain way or belief and much of the younger offsprings are following like sheep! 

"...the theological expositions of a vast majority of our Pandits propagate this  backwardness.... A vast majority of Pandits hardly ever utilize the powerful messages and story lines of our Shastras to motivate Hindus to take a stand for Dharma..."

 I would venture to volunteer a few reasons for this state of affairs.  First, they don't know and refuse to be educated. Secondly, it is one of protecting their 'turf' (needless to say at the expense of loosing the flock). "Another problem associated with this theological backwardness is the salient propagation and promotion of brahmanism."  Hindu's are being misled and exploited and sent into depression of no hope by the use of "swadharma" and "santosha" to suppress their God given right to "awake and arise."  This is not only backward, but also selfish and destructive. Our 'revered' orators fear to be bold to tell people the "swadharma" refers to "one's natural abilities" and nothing else.

 In every society there is a class or caste system. I venture to say that it is a necessity. However in Hinduism, the way in which it is being propagated only deprive the religion and the masses of the true realization of his very essence of having been given the fortune of the 'human body'. 

No one is born a brahmin or into anything; we are what we make of our selves or what we allow others to turn us into.  The sacred Bhagvad Gita says (see verse 4:13): "caatur-varanyam mayaa srstam gunakarma vibhaagasah.." and..Karmaani pravibhaktaani svabhaava prabhavair gunaih” (see verse 18:41)."   These extracts, without doubt do not restrict anyone with the education, abilities and character from aspiring and becoming leaders of congregation, etc. However, our people have been so indoctrinated to believe that only a person of certain parentage can officiate at his or her puja. Sadly, the older ones have passed it on and it is like a terminal and contagious disease. 

 "A vast majority of Pandits hardly ever utilize the powerful messages and story lines of our Shastras to motivate Hindus to take a stand for Dharma..." For them to attempt to inspire the congregation would be to enlighten them, and an enlightened congregation is seen as a threat, rather than an asset to some Pandits. This is appropriate to concluded from their actions. The messages from our Shastras are powerful, positive and full of the promise and hope for all - without exception of birth.  Instead of preaching of "heaven and hell" and "sins", why not: "Rahita na prabhu chita chooka kiye kee, karata surati saya baar hiye kee..." The Lord is not mindful of the sins we have committed, but considers a hundred times the purpose of the heart..." “Mora sudhaarihi soh sab bhaatee, jaasu kripaa nahi kripaau aghaatee.” He will mend all my errors, for his grace never tires of showing his grace... (Baalkanda-Ramcharitamanasa). “Api ced asi paap-pebhyah sarve-bhyah paapa-krttamah Sarvam jnaana pla-venai'va vrijnam samtarisyasi” (Gita 4:36). Even if you WERE  (A command to change...as many will do when they are forced to cross the line) the foulest of sinners, yet one shall cross over the ocean of sin by the raft of Brahma-Jnaana alone.  "paartha naiveha naa-mutra vinaa-sas-tasya vid-yate..." 'Dear Arjuna, there is no fall from him either here or hereafter....'

I have attended functions in the NY metro area. Of the many devotees that I have been fortunate to meet, the elder ones seem happy for what they are. Many of the younger ones seem to want at home functions to finish quickly - most are not in the congregation. (The parents of many of these are at a loss to find ways to get them to go to Mandirs or to inspire them). Males are outside (peetay botal kaa hai paani (beers!)). Needless to say, some people - 30's, complain of Hinduism being complex and complicated. The composition of the congregation in Mandirs in NYC is an indication of the motivations of the younger generation to love their heritage, to be proud of it and to stand up and be counted.

"...I don't think Hindu lecturers are that big of a problem..." I agree! We have the resource personnel. The problem is to get the people interested. We will recall the attendance at the 1999 Symposium "Re-energizing Sanatana Dharam for the 21st Century". My personal experience is that our businesses are not inclined to do much, if any, in the way of promotion. (One person once told me that his business would suffer if he were identified with a program of the likes that I once hosted once a month - Satsanga).

A few years ago it was the American Blacks and within recent times the Hispanic youths on the streets of NYC. Tomorrow it may be ours. Then many will blame the failure of Hinduism. But we must first look into the mirror of our minds and accept that a problem may arise and the time is now to take the necessary preventive actions so that our youths continue on a straight path.

__Ji, you struck a perfect tone! These are my own uninformed and uneducated thoughts that I want to share in this continuing dialogue of the greatness of Hinduism and what ought to be done to help us all realize, enjoy and then spread this great message. On a closing note, and very much controversial, much of our Mandirs, having been established with public funds have become personal seats. 

Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:49:26

Namaskar all: If there is one thing that really has brought discredit and shame to us Hindus is the ignorance and backwardness of many so-called "Pandits". In this day and age, all it takes to be a "Pandit" in the Guyanese context is to have a 'good' voice and be able to read parrot style  'transliterated' Hindi, or something like that. Let's face it. The money is good! What bothers me is that some "Pandits" still feel that that they can read any "antar jantar” and tell one or two "nancy stories" and feel that they are spreading the light of Hinduism. It seems that Any Tom and Dick can become a Pandit! But folks, let's face it up. Some of these chaps are merely filling a demand for purohits by Hindus, many of whom are too lazy to pray to their respective Isht/Lord. Thus, they "rent a pandit" to do the job.

This is perhaps one area where the Caribbean Hindu Group can offer some leadership role -- lobby for change -- to give training to Hindus who wish to serve the people.... I do know that this is a tough job, given our small membership base and little or no resources to brag about. In the meantime, the least, we can do is to discuss the problem.

Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:30:02

Namaskaar Ji. With regards to the last e-mail --- I agree with you. But listen to this argument I had with a convert to Christianity. He told me that while he was a Hindu he never felt anything – i.e., he did all the rituals, went to Mandirs, etc., but was still lost. It all changed since he went to Christ. He studies the bible now, etc. I asked him if he ever read the GITA and he said no. I said to him that he depended on the pujaris to lead him to God and help him find God and he said yes. The point is this -- this guy and many Hindus are depending mostly on these pujaris to help us. We all know that many of them have no spirituality -- they are quite often rotten yet we are two lazy to do our pujas, read our holy books ourselves. These pujaris know this so and this is why they can continue to behave the way they do. The day all Hindus begin to study our texts this will all change. The other point that I want to emphasize is meditation. It’s our only salvation for personal spirituality. Yoga belongs to us -- it is our heritage, yet we are reluctant to access its benefits. Here in Guyana, we are so lucky to get yoga teachers from India to teach us but guess who are the ones attending ---2/3 of the students r non-Hindus!!

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 02:34:05

Namaskaar Jis. Why do we keep referring to the Pujaris as Pandits? We are criticizing these people and we ourselves are making the same mistakes. This exploitation by Pujaris is a very serious problem. I hope that on this forum, by identifying the problems, we will then proceed to make the changes necessary. I firmly believe that the reasons these people are doing what they are doing is because we are allowing them to continue to do so. We are too lazy to learn the mantras ourselves; hence we feel we need these people to utter the mantras for our liberation. We are too lazy! At our Mandir, we used to depend on the Pujaris to conduct the satsanghs. When they had to do people's pujas or were late, the satsanghs were affected. My Dad and some of the other members decided to do something about this -- they decided to start congregational worship. They decided on a format for the satsangh and made a book, which was given to everyone. My Dad led the satsanghs – the people did not miss or had to wait for Pujari anymore. At first, there was much talk --- my Dad was not a brahmin -- these people had no idea who or what was a bramhin. But my Dad did not let them stop him from doing his duty -- he did it until he passed away. Anyone who attends our Mandir will find that everyone knows the mantras. In our family, we couldn't get a Pujari to do our Dad's pitri paksh shraad -- so we did it all ourselves! Today we do all our pujas ourselves! We all know that most of these "Pujaris" are not too "bright" yet they have managed to memorize some of the mantras, etc.

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:01:41

Namaskar Jis! A good deal has been said about this subject, all of it is very informative and important.  Many suggestions have been made as to the cause of this peculiar Hindu malaise -- Gandhian ideas of peace and unity; some of the very concepts in Hinduism (some of which have been misinterpreted, sometimes deliberately); the practice dictated by these concepts; misguided and ill-educated Pandits, etc. The upshot is that our intellect has been damaged; we fail to use the powers of discrimination; and, even when we do, it fails to move us into action.  We have become the victims of our own broadmindedness.

While all human interaction is ultimately about power, the first domain of that power, when it comes to larger issues, is usually the outside -- that is, power is first applied to other races, religions, etc.  Unfortunately, we Hindus have a higher regard for others than we have for ourselves – we start with ourselves.  Small wonder that many Pandits see ordinary Hindus as easy bait. Many of them (Pandits) are no more enlightened than the ordinary folks, but they are immensely more cunning and crookish; and they have no qualms adapting and using religion to divide and subjugate us.  Rather than enlightening us, our religion is used to maim our psyche and thus weaken our own resistance.

A cousin of mine told me a revealing story. She went back home for a visit and, as a devoted Hindu, went to the village Mandir, which she and I attended as children. She was given a chance to address the gathering and did speak out against certain injustices.  Then and there some people -- in power, of course -- sought to erase the sharp edge of her speech.  And when she left, poor Hindus were once again under the spell of the rapacious leeches – the Pandit and his henchmen.

Rightly, we have located the source of the problem with Pandits themselves. We have also noted that the very manner in which Hinduism is being propagated opens up the possibility for Pandits to exploit their fellow Hindus.  These lost souls have their own agendas and have been used it for privilege, wealth, comfort and a good life for too long; they will not relinquish these goodies easily.  In fact, Pandits have a vested interest in promoting their own agenda, and thus their own notion of what constitutes Hinduism. Look how easily many of these so-called Hindu leaders get our women to bed. Many Pandits are desperately interested in protecting what they perceive as their territory -- the performance of rituals. To my mind, this is one of the main reasons why they invoke brahmanism for the conduct of rituals -- to ensure the flow of perks and privilege.

I also agree with ___Ji that, "the propagation of brahmanism is equal to theological backwardness." Pandits will certainly not agree with __Ji, for, like imperialists,  "theological backwardness" is the source of their immense benefits  -- that is, it is to their benefit to ensure the survival of "theological backwardness." (This is not to say that there are no genuine Pandits). By definition, then, generally, Pandits cannot have the best interest of the Hindu Samaj at heart. 

How do we deal with these issues? A three-pronged strategy emerges from what we - all of us - have written thus far: (i) education of ordinary Hindus so as to break the "panditai" spell; (ii) inculcating the view that one does not necessarily need to be a Pandit to do rituals; and (iii) restricting and eventually eliminating the privileged position of Pandits.

I close with a suggestion.  We have had fruitful discussion on this issue; indeed, we are- privileged, if I may say, for most Hindus have not had the benefit of partaking in this discourse.  May I suggest that we collect this discussion into a single piece (with editing and perhaps some elaboration)?  This can then be distributed to Mandirs .... We can also distribute it to people on the street. 

Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:22:09

Dear Members, Namaskaar. I read with interest the ongoing discussions on Pandits or Pujaaris and Brahmins. I think it is an important debate. What is sad is that the discussions are often descending into name-calling. Don't we have the patience to deal with the subject indepth without descending into name- calling?

 It is also untrue that all Pandits and Pujaaris are best described by the terms used. Most importantly, it is an important value for builders to understand. You must not destroy something until you could replace it with another.

Most importantly, is to put our hands, heads, hearts, time, and money in providing education for all those who want to become Pandits or Pujaaris. There are several people in the Caribbean, who put together, could provide the education for Pandits... how can we bring these people together and attract those who want to be trained... and how can we help structure it... how can we make people support institutions to put training and seva oriented Pandits-Pujaris in place?

Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:56:34

Namaskar. Since we seem to be bringing this subject to a close, there are some important misconceptions that are missing. FIRST: WHO IS DOING THE WORK? - YAJKARTA OR PRIEST?

"They engage a Priest, Purohit, Pandit (or call him what you may) to "do" their "work".  This is utter nonsense and the root of the whole "backwardness" that we have come to identify as a dependency ending in exploitation. The Priest, Purohit or Pandit does not "do" the "work"! You the yaj-karta is the one who is "doing" the "work". The Priest, Purohit or Pandit is there to guide through the process, and most importantly, to inspire and move the yagmaan for the few moments out of the materialistic environment to a higher state of consciousness - a state of unity and experiencing of the Divine. When a person shall have been so inspired, he does not pray to God but prays in the company of God - he is really in Satsanga – he enjoys what he is doing.

SECOND: In prayers we would have transformed ourselves (hopefully) from an ordinary being to one of a Divine one - we would have awakened the divinity within. Shaanti-path is the prayers to ask of these Divine qualities to remain within us, be active in the various parts of our limbs, organs and senses and that we be like the person that we have just experienced.

THIRD: There was this wonderful Satsanga and time is up. The presiding person announces that 'all good things must come to an end'. DEAD WRONG AGAIN. Satsangas are gatherings in which, through divine messages and chantings, the ordinary is transformed to realize the Divine within. The parting words to the Devotees must be " May we take with us the good messages and thoughts that we have received here today and let them be an integral part of our existence so that we may always feel the same joys as we perform our daily duties, and may they inspire us to change to be someone better".

FOURTH: Should we allow non-Hindus to address a Hindu function? If they are permitted, should they not be forewarned that this is a Hindu function and that they should keep within the boundaries of Hinduism! I feel strongly about this. I was recently told by a Christian Pastor that he knows that he is allowed to speak his piece at any Hindu function or Mandir, and to the point of projecting Christianity, but, he cannot let that happen in his church - a person from another religion will not be allowed to speak in his Church. "We have become the victims of our own broadmindedness". Let this not continue.

Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:53:02

Namaskar All: Yes! I agree with __Ji re: Putting all the ideas expressed in a book form. Some time ago, I did read in the Stabroek News of a "Pluck Chicken" Pandit who apparently was also the village Purohit, but makes living selling meat-birds at the local market. I wonder if he is a Brahmin too?

Brothers and Sisters, aren't we expecting too much when the blind is attempting to lead the blind? Like other ordinary citizens, our impoverished "Pandits" need to survive.  They have families to feed. Many Pandits have come across to North America looking for greener pastures. These guys can barely read anything -- Hindi or English! But at least they are trying with incomprehensible Hindi sounding uttering.

We who know better have recognized the problem. The time for action is now. Sure, Caribbean Hindus should look into this matter, and kick-start the process of lobbying for change. With the kind of enlightened members who have so eloquently written about Hinduism and what needs to be done to serve our people and others who wish to become Hindus, I'm sure we'll make a difference. May the Good Lord (Ram, Krishna) bless us all of you and give us the energy and courage to serve the cause of Hinduism.

Wed, 01 May 2002 15:45:59

Namaskar All! This is an important discussion and I agree with the suggestion proposed by __Ji and __Ji that we should consider editing and publishing it in some form for circulation and feedback. The expositions of __Ji, __Ji and __Ji raise important dimensions to this discussion.

Now, I don’t think that anyone of the approximately 60 Hindu members of this group would disagree with the suggestion of __Ji that we need to essentially create a mechanism to provide education to anyone who wishes to become Pandits/Purohits/Pujaris, etc. Indeed, such an opportunity should be provided for any Hindu – those who are also not interested in becoming Pandits/Purohits, but want to be able to conduct their own basic rituals.

Having said that, I am of the opinion, like in any discipline where there are problems/corruption/unethical manipulations, there is a prerequisite need to diagnose the ailments of the system of Panditai and the invocation of Brahmanism for the conduct of rituals, prior to the application of curative measures. Therefore, I am of the opinion that we should encourage more members and allow some more time to discuss their experiences before we switch gear to the solutions part.

I do not believe, as __Ji is suggesting, that, “What is sad is that the discussions are often descending into name calling.” I may be wrong, but I do not see any example of name-calling. In fact, the discussion does not pinpoint specific individuals; rather the discussion is about a system. However, I would agree that some harsh language has been used by some, and this I think is an example of their frustration, rather than name-calling.

Another thing! I think that it is disingenuous to create the impression that this discussion has lumped all Pandits/Purohits/Pujaris into one basket – that they are all bad. No one has written that, and neither would it be allowed because it would be too foolish a statement. Let us not trivialize the discussion. Let us deal with substantive issues raised here.

I am delighted to learn from __Ji that they and other people are conducting their own rituals and they have a so-called non-brahmin who conducts the pujas in their temple. In fact, an examination of the meaning of brahmana may demonstrate, depending on the lifestyle of that purohit/purari that in fact he is a true Brahmin. Anyway, the Brahmin question is another matter that we should discuss at a convenient time.

As I said, I think we should spend some more time on our experiences with the problem. I think this is important because more than often the problems are swept under the rug by fellow Pandits and because Hindus have been taught not to talk back to Pandits, the problem, while Hindus know it exist, is hidden and this is why it more than often resurfaces with detrimental consequences to the Hindu psyche.

At my Mussa (Uncle) wake a few years ago I listened to mid-aged Hindu woman from Trinidad: She related that she once invited a “Pundit” to her home in Trinidad to conduct a puja. He came late and ordered them to setup and went in front of the house. Her son then informed her that the “Pundit” was smoking a cigarette. She said this infuriated her because she always told her two sons that smoking was not the Hindu way. She said she politely asked the “pundit” to leave and explained to him her reasons. However, she said she was not expecting the response she got from her guests. They felt she had done something wrong because the “Pundit” was a Brahmin. She was a rare, strong woman and proceeded to conduct the puja herself with her children in the limited way she knew.

In NYC, nowadays, it is fashionable for Pandits running Mandirs to be given titles (by themselves or their henchmen) such as Dharmaacharya, Acharya, Sangeet Acharya, Vyaakaranacharya, and at least on one flyer a Pundit was called Shankaracharya. How do we expect Hindus to react to these things when these are blatantly fake titles? Who are these chaps fooling?

Why is it that most Mandirs (I am certain about Guyana and NYC) do not invite Hindu scholars or lecturers to address the congregation? Even when you try to make arrangements for this to happen, you are faced with insurmountable difficulties. In this regard, I think the Arya Samaj Mandirs in NYC are way ahead of the so-called Sanatani Mandirs. They are far more open to inviting lecturers and accommodating visiting scholars.

Other relevant questions: Why is it that most Panidts themselves do not speak out against the rampant corruption that many of their fellow Panidts engage in? In the Texas rape case, I have been told that a group of Pandits went to so far as to claim that the actions of the Pandit in question (not the alleged rape but his consultations -- “antar jantar” as some people call it) is part of Hinduism?

And the matter raised by __Ji: Indeed, it is no secret that most Mandirs were/are built by public (Hindus) money, but some ultimately become controlled by the Pandit and his family. In fact, after the Mandir is built, some Pandits openly and shamelessly claim that they built it, forgetting the ordinary people who gave money for the noble endeavor.

Thu, 02 May 2002 11:36:37

Namaskar Jis, I admire __Ji's thoughtful piece and his courageous effort to set the record straight.  Like him, I have not seen any instances of name-calling.  I did use the term "rapacious leeches," but it was not applied to any specific person.  It was intended as an appellation of the practices (life style) of a sub-set of the panditai class (forgive the term). Anyhow, I am happy that this issue has come out into the open and I would like to add a few lines.

Language, with all its subtleties and complexities, is our most important means of communication.  The question naturally arises: is there an ideal way of communicating in all circumstances and to all classes of people?  I doubt it, but I am aware that our tradition calls upon us to speak "sweetly" and, by implication, to write "sweetly." I do not know what to make of this, but I think that an inquiry into the origin and context of this advice will serve us well.

Language does not exist in a vacuum; it use is seasoned by human emotions, human interaction and human relations.  In other words, it is the context and desired results that dictate how language is used.  Must we not call a spade a spade or should we call it an agricultural implement?  Must we use "sweet" words to address a particularly troubling problem confronting the Hindu Samaj at this critical juncture in time?  Could it be that Pandits would be unmoved by "sweet" words?  I am beginning to think that language has to be pitched to accommodate the mentality of its intended audience.  I am not endorsing name-calling or crude language; I am merely asserting what seems to be an empirical fact.

Polished language has its place, of course. Whether or not this is the kind of language that should be used to deal with the problem confronting us, I am not sure.  Assuming that polished language is what should be used in this discourse, is this the language in which the problem should be communicated to the masses?  Such "sweet" language has a tendency to paint an inaccurate picture or, at least, to convey a distorted impression.  Indeed, if you were to look at the role of language in the multifaceted aspects of human endeavor (take Hitler for example), you would see how it is tailored.  Language must have a trajectory and a motive; otherwise it is looses its instrumental role.

Thu, 02 May 2002 16:04:12

Namaskaar. Several years ago, the dance teacher at the Indian Cultural Centre had the title Pandit. People assumed that he was a priest -- he had a lot of explaining to do!! My point again is this -- the people who are our Hindu priests are Purohits. We have to use the proper titles and names or else our people are going to continue to exist in ignorance.

(Editorial note: In Caribbean countries, the term Pandit is generally incorrectly used to mean Hindu priests. In fact, the term Pandit, Purohit, and Pujaris are used interchangeably. Quite true, the term Pandit is interpreted as priest, incorrectly that is. Pandit Jawarhalall Nehru was never a priest – some argue that he was an atheist. Pandit Jasraj or Pandit Bhimsen Joshi, both legendary devotional singers, are not Priests. Indeed, Caribbean Hindus must be educated.)

Thu, 2 May 2002 08:59:49

  Namaskaar. This insight is very helpful in clarifying the role of the Purohit and the jagnakarta also referred to syajmaan or jajmaan. The responsibility of the ritual is centered on the individual.  'I remember an experience in my childhood. My aunt and uncle were sitting as the yajmaan for a pooja... they needed something which they forgot to put in place; an aunt ave me some cash to run to the shop to get it; my Aajee, screamed at her, ee galat baa - this is wrong, go and get the money form uncle or aunt (yajmaan). My Ajee was adamant; it does not matter if we had to disturb them because what must be offered must come from them and nobody else.

Thu, 2 May 2002 05:26:25

Namaskaar to all members:

(1) I congratulate the post by __Ji. This brings to fore many areas for urgent discussion.

(2) I want to clarify that when I said, 'stop the name calling' I did not mean 'identifying Pandits by name' but labeling Pandits names, etc. which in my recollection, I read, but I am subject to corrections. If that was not happening within the discourse, then it is a good sign and I stand corrected.

(3) I am glad that we suggested extensive discussions; I believe all Hindu should participate in this, there must be a way that the group could engage a wider discussion. I also believe that it would be a great thing to compile all the suggestions, information, ideas, etc., structure them and make them available.

(4) I want to identify another troubling problem, which has already been initiated -- MANDIR AND COMMUNITY POSSESSION. Mandirs are built largely by Hindu communities! But sadly, the contributors and their descendents are often not only sidelined, but loose privileges of personal choice in who have the right to perform their religious rites. I recommend this subject for urgent discussion, because the ramifications are serious.

Thu, 2 May 2002 05:55:32

Bandhus Namaskaar!

1) The Mandir plays a central role in, and for the Hindu community. Everything about the Mandir therefore, has to be the concern of all Hindus. It gives a focus for the way he community perceives itself as well as how it is perceived by others. The community must take a vigorous role in Mandir matters. Hindus must show up, showing up is the first step in community building.  Many Hindus are upset and don’t show up, and this is the first feature of our failure!

 2) It is the community that builds the Mandir. Contributions in cash and kind come from the community. Organizers approach the community to attend, participate and contribute. Lands are often donated by community members; it is up-kept by those who sweep it, build, clean, give aarti, purchase tickets for bazaar, etc. Many Mandirs have slow development over several years. In many communities, some of the contributors have become legends. I have heard of many legends in the Hindu communities, (1) For making parsad, (2) Cooks, (3) Disciplinarians, (4) Mala makers, (5) Dholak players (6) Pandits, and from other departments, all of whom contributed to the development spanning many generations.

 3) Then community Mandirs, suddenly went into a period of development in which organizations have become more central. This is understandable, in the growth. Mandirs have to be protected from Mandir-snatching by groups and persons.

 4) During the development what also transpired, is that many community members have lost rights and personal choice in the Mandirs, despite the fact that their families have been central to their development, etc. Strong-arm tactics are also used for suppressing dissent and people often leave Mandirs with which they had relations over generations.

 5) How must Hindus view the Mandirs? A community possession? A possession of an organization? Must they contribute to a Mandir in which they have no personal choice?

 6) It is a complex issue, it is a part of our 'growing up', coming of age as a community. It is also driven by the drive for power and domination.

 7) What will be the consequence of this feature of community happening in such an important place as the Mandir in the community? Whatever, this issue is worth discussion.

Fri, 03 May 2002 16:27:36

I think it is wonderful that some Hindus lead the rituals themselves instead of relying on corrupted, and largely uneducated "un-Hindu" Pandits. These people should keep up the great work and many more Hindus should begin to do the same. These Pandits (some akin to the Catholic priests) should also be investigated.

Fri, 03 May 2002 15:37:09

Namaskar, Jis! I wish to develop an issue raised by __Ji, if I recall, and discussed by __Ji.  It is the issue that Mandirs are communal properties.  That is an indisputable fact. Indeed, I do not think that a Mandir can exist without a community. It is this ownership, as some of you have pointed out, that is being usurped.  Many Pandits derive their privilege, strength and power from the usurpation of a vital communal possession.  Two points follow:

First, education:  People, whether or not they are poor and/or illiterate, knows that a Mandir is a communal property.  They assume, however, that the Mandir was built for Pandits or a small group of people. As such, they are not in a mood to challenge anything or anyone. Perhaps this has been part of our tradition (submissive, docile), which, if I am correct, should be purged.  It is here that education become important: more than anything else Hindus, particularly the poor, illiterate ones, must realize that blind acceptance of things are not in their interest; a spirit of critical inquiry will have to be fostered (which is perfectly in keeping with the view that Sanatana Dharma is a practical and scientific endeavor).

Second, management:  In an effort to wrestle away Mandirs from Pandits and their clique, the issue of management becomes important.  Could we develop some principles and guidelines for the effective management (including financial management and accountability) of mandirs? Once this is done, the real task would be to teach these principles and guidelines to ordinary Hindus.  Perhaps we can get some assistance from Bharat?

Fri, 03 May 2002 15:45:56

Namaste.  This is my first mail to this group. Regarding the issue of 'soft' versus 'crude' language: In a discussion with a colleague I referred to a pro-Hindu website, whose writings I find very offensive.  His answer was, "to talk with a Tangawala (horse-carriage driver), you have to speak only his language." In Bharat, tangawalas are generally rough and crude in their behavior (at least that is the stereotype.). You cannot be polite all the time - you can earn a "goody goody" title but you will not do the justice to your mission. However, in our email discussions, we should not cross Laxman -Rekha. We all work for the same cause and there are only a limited number of people who think beyond their personal comforts, so, all people who participate in such email group discussion are brothers and sisters.

 Sat, 4 May 2002 08:30:12

 Namaskar: There are indeed a few touchy issues here. I tell you that I experienced both kinds of power struggle. In the 70's my group was unceremoniously ejected from office in the name of political expediency. One group summoned a meeting (did not invite us), held elections (?) and within a week it was announced in two newspapers that we were thrown out. Needless to say, soon afterwards, the building started to fall apart and it was only after we were back again in a few years that weekly services commenced and is still going on to this day.

 I do recall that in Guyana many of the Mandirs (like our own from where I came) were (are still) community owned and supported in many ways by the community through collections for various matters from - building to parb funding.  It is also true that from time to time "the power of domination" motivate interest groups to move to topple those in office. In some instances this may be justified as the current crop of officers do not serve the community in anyway. In other instances, there are groups who tend to sit on the side awaiting the completion and then move in later.  The only way to guard against perceived power struggle is the orderly conduct of the affairs of the organization with democratic choices. In my home village, there was a formal organization with a constitution and the property deed was in the names of a few trustees designated in the constitution.

 In NYC many of our Mandirs center around Pandits, his family, or family of associates, or a small group. Out of fear or the thirst for power, many are personalized seats. No one else is permitted to address or to officiate. Let me give an example of one in a certain borough of NYC - no one else can officiate at any yag. Power and competition! Let there be a yaj organized somewhere else in the vicinity! As soon as that flier is out, you bet very shortly he is announcing one (presided by him of course) that will commence around the same time.

 About 2 weeks ago I was taking home a young man (tabla player). I injected that I have moved around a bit and could not remember seeing him and inquired which Mandir he attends. He said that he has seen me around. On Mandir attendance, he said that Mandirs are places where one goes and enjoys peace and relish in the joys of Satsanga. However, this has not been his experience, he goes in the morning and returns home more frustrated. He now prays at home.

 A few years ago I started to make inquiries in organizing seminars for our priests. These would have basically dealt with brief expositions of a few of the social sciences (psychology, philosophy, sociology). The objective was that with any appreciation of the interaction of these sciences in the day to day dwelling of the ordinary folks the sermons would have moved out of the "itihaas" stage of our Puranas, to a more "living" aspect of these Puranas in the current age. In such seminars would also have had discussion on the "art of public speaking". Know what was the response? You would not get any Pandit (sic) to attend.

 Second - attracting and training young prospective Pujaris. A few months ago, Hinduism Today carried an article where in India (don't recall the state), a group of young “non-brahmin born” boys were being trained to become priests. This should be an inspiration.

 Sat, 4 May 2002 09:39:59 

Namaskar. I recently came across a nice aphorism on the subject under discussion: "Do not kill a mosquito on the forhead of a friend with a hammer." I think the question would then be, who is a friend?

Sat, 4 May 2002 09:51:58

Namaskar All: I thought that the fellas that did the rituals for individuals, etc., were Purohits and the ones who took care of the rituals in the Mandirs were Pujaris. Comment?

 Sun, 5 May 2002 21:42:28

Namaste. With reference to the subject, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (Bharat) has trained several pujaris who have requsite qualifications for performing these duties in the Western World. They are also inculcated with Sangh vision. For more information, please contact Sushimbhai Mukerji in Delaware. Sushimbhai, a senior worker of Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America went to Bharat for one year, designed and developed the priest training program (keeping in mind the need of the youngsters here) and ran the program as well.

Sun, 05 May 2002 02:29:36

Namaskaar. These are my suggestions as to what we can do to help. For the long-term process: we select some young men and women who have the interest and seem to have some ability, and then send them to Bharat for proper training. Then when they come back, every Mandir must have accommodations for the Pujari to live there.

Then for people who think that they must do certain pujas every year, etc., or the wrath of God will descend upon them -- this is the legacy of the current crop of so-called PANDITS, they have instill so much fear in the minds of Hindus that many pray out of sheer fear. We have to let these poor souls understand that they need NO ONE to make offerings or pray to GOD for them! They can do that themselves!

Tue, 7 May 2002 22:12:50

Namaskar: There are a few good points that are proposed. "Selection" poses a problem. It must be voluntary on the part of the persons having a genuine interest.  The Indian High Commission, in Guyana used to award scholarships for persons to be trained in India. I know of a few who benefited and then on their way home stopped short in NY and remained; not fulfilling their obligations to serve in Guyana. Not withstanding, we need to still pursue this avenue of training for the future.

The suggestion of every Mandir having a place for a Pujari is laudable. However, given the context of the manner of West Indian worship and the way West Indian Hindu community is (dis)organized(sic), I do not see that this will happen. The work of the Pujari will continue to be a part-time vocation - unless the person has totally eschewed materialism and chose a devotional life to serve the 'people' and community. Can our people take care of such a person as the Christian Church takes care of their full-time priests? In comparison the Indian nationals have Pujaris in their Mandirs. But there is a big difference. One does not find our brothers from Bharat having “Jhandis” in their homes. We enjoy these types of gatherings and look forward with eagerness to have them in the 'once a year' pujas. Our people will make appointments at the mandirs, go privately, make their offerings and pay the fee. Then they go back to their daily routines.

I think that even though we have many Mandirs here already, it is good to have even more. I would inject, the more the merrier, not withstanding the exploitation by our present crop of Pujaris. While motives differ for starting our Mandirs in the basements, the motivations for the early attendees of the 1st wave of immigrants was more of a socializing opportunity than anything else. In the late 60's and early 70's the Mandirs were the places to meet your own kind. I have traveled in NYC and in Toronto and Montreal and seen in Mandirs people whom I know from Guyana and who would have addressed one from “a to z” in the mention of attending Mandir. These days, as the immigrant population grows, the families and villages of yore are reunited and expand here; people I dare say want to rekindle the same family/village orientation. Therefore, in what has become also a struggle and competition for a seat of power, we have these little 'nests' propping up here and there. We must encourage these, for the simple reason, that in a small way they serve as a magnet to hold people in the religion. That interest we have to increase. I would encourage those who can, to drive around Harlem in NYC - in every street, almost every block, there is a Christian church of some kind of denomination. If they can have them, and attempt to hold on to their youths, we must also so attempt.

Kirtan singing is great. The blending of voices creates a special vibration that words cannot describe. I support it. However, to have that in its entirety is not in the best interest of the individual development. The Pandit should not be allowed to dominate and ultimately manipulate the ability of the devotee to think for his/her self. This is why it is important for every Mandir to have a proper management team in place.

Sun, 05 May 2002 02:29:36

Namaskar. So far, I have agreed with views through this wonderful Caribbean Hindu Group. But as far as the points below, this may be only partially true. As a Guyanese, I know for sure that:

1) Many Hindus are lazy to pray for themselves (too tired working?).
2) Some Hindus probably feel that Pandits can do a better job at praying -- for them.
3) By calling a Pandit to pray at their homes, the Hindu "devotee" may also be fulfilling a social role--to catch up with their friends or relatives on a regular basis, or showing off their new homes to their peers.

This is the catch: It is a misconception that calling in a Pandit to do a puja once a year can somehow wash away the "previous year's sins". Clearly, somehow, we need to educate the people, for every pot stands on its own bottom!
For the record, I am usually reluctant to attend long and often boring
"sermons" where I learn nothing new. All I end up with are sore and aching legs, aka "blessings". To be truthful, I get greater satisfaction and pleasure by keeping in touch with my Hindu brothers and sisters through this medium.

Thu, 9 May 2002 13:19:03

Dear contributor __: I do appreciate your article of 5/8/02. Indeed, we cannot overlook our Caribbean experience as Hindus. Our history in the Caribbean has been turbulent, and we must be proud that despite the communal and bureaucratic pressure to deculturize us, we still hold on relentlessly to our Jhandis,Kathas, Surujpuraanas, Durga Paats, etc. Of course, some Indians from India may still hold us in disdain, thinking that we are outcasts, thinking that we are not Indians. But, despite our cultural mutilations, we have developed ourselves into a distinct and proud commnunity with a colorful and dynamic culture.

 Many of our Indian brothers from the Caribbean are renouncing this Caribbeanness and pretending purity from the social and political embrasure in the Caribbean. I cannot blame them, for sometimes illusion is very sweet.

Yes, India is the root of my Indianness and Hinduness, but sometimes the geographical and social landscapes of India are a stranger to me. I have never been to India: my India is the what has been passed down to me by my fore-parents who had been brought to slave on sugar plantations. My India is the rituals and festivals and Puraans and Vedas and other books what my fore-parents had kept alive during the torrid passage of history. Your article is indeed a good one, bringing us back to a sober level and shifting us away from from a perilous illusion. I remember what Senator Suren Capildeo said in 1994 at a Bhagvat Yagna: that one day the people of India will have to go to Trinidad to observe Prayaag.  

(Editorial note:  What is “Caribbeanness” to Hindus? Is it true that “Indians from India still hold us in disdain” or is this a perception stemming from our own inferiority complex? Who are these groups? We know of Hindu groups from Bharat trying hard to work with Caribbean Hindus. Can __Ji please shed some light on what he means by “the pretence of extreme purity of our own Caribbean people”? India (Bharat) is the Mother of Hinduism and the fact remains that Bharat has contributed significantly to Hindus in the Caribbean – Indian Cultural Centers, scholarships, etc. Today, Bharat is the largest contributor of aid and technical assistance to Guyana.)

 Wed, 8 May 2002 21:20:37

Namaskar All: Over the weeks the participants in this group have transcended and identified some core issues. I enjoy the 'net' contact and idea exchange. But, I find it only one resource. I do share your thoughts of: "I am usually reluctant to attend long and often boring "sermons" where I learn nothing new." However, because the audience may be comprised of a mixture of devotees at various levels of consciousness, some may find a sermon repetitive (and a particularly popular preacher immediately comes to my mind), and nothing new. Let us realize though that repetitiveness becomes "boring" only if and when we would have learned and absorbed the previous listening exercises, (not lessons), applied and practice them in our daily lives, and would have changed from the personality that we were before we entered the satsanga to one of an elevated person (however small it may be). Then we are prepared for new thoughts, to climb to the next step of the ladder of the "nowdha bhakti" concept given to humanity and 99.9% of the time, in any sermon preached as 'nine forms (sic) of devotion'.

In closing I want to make one observation - all of us, ask ourselves. How much de we value our religion or belief? Could you imagine the outrage to find a store named "Mohamed Liquor Store". On Northern Blvd a few years ago a Liquor store opened 4 or 5 doors from a Christian church. For some 2 weeks there were daily demonstrations on the street. The store closed. But some Hindus are not proud of what they are, do not value their belief system, do not even know the sacredness of their own names! In the Bronx of NYC, this owner proudly displays his sign "KRISHNA'S LIQUOR STORE".

Sun, 12 May 2002 23:48:36

Bhai/Bahen Namskar: In an attempt to develop strategies to address the blatant abuse of the priesthood by some unscrupulous individuals, it is important to understand the challenge that lies ahead.   A sizable percentage of the Hindu masses still continue to support the status quo and are even willing to defend and protect it. Without doubt, the grip that the brahmins have had on ordinary Hindus is gradually whittling away, but make no mistake, the inferiority complex that has been etched on the minds of millions, through deliberate and unrelenting programming over hundreds of years, still persists.   Today, the benefactors of this pernicious system of exploitation are redoubling their efforts to maintain their hold on the people.

When the rape case of the Texas Pandit was televised, many viewers were baffled that three seemingly intelligent women, all with sound education backgrounds, were so easily ensnared into the traps set by one malevolent priest. A panel of psychiatrists who were viewing the case indicated that the mind-boggling power and influence the priest was able to exhort on the women is reflective of the mesmerizing effect that a combination of charisma, rituals, incantations, and sermons have on a believing congregation.  This power, for generations, has been employed to manipulate a captive mass of millions for the benefit of a few.   

Many so-called brahmin priests, fully aware of the sway they command over their flocks have, over the years, used every ruse within their grasp to indoctrinate people of other castes into believing that they were all born inferior to them (brahmins).  So blatant was the brainwashing that the so-called sudras were told that their status was too low to allow them the privilege to read the Vedas.  Even today, there are Pandits in the tri-state area who continue to make such preposterous utterances.  As a matter of fact, one group of priests in the community formed a Brahmin Sabha to protect the purity (?) of the priesthood, and to reaffirm the anointed position of the so-called born brahmins. 

Priests within the Brahmin Sabha spare no effort to cast aspersions on those they view as non-brahmins who practice as priests.   At every function where they officiate, brahmin priests warn the congregation of the grave sin they would incur by asking these non-brahmins to perform religious functions for them. Many of these Sabha priests have become so aggressive that they have stopped masking their attacks using subtle remarks.  Instead, they are now launching direct and open attacks against those who dare encroach upon the territory of the anointed.

Quite often, many brahmin priests justify their exalted position by pointing to selected passages and verses extracted from some of our popular Sastras that seem to give validity to their claims. While the point is often made that many priests interpret the scriptures to suit their own purposes, there are texts, including the very popular Ramcharita Manas, the Manu Smriti and the Dharma Sastras, that some unscrupulous people use to pointedly defend the exalted positions of brahmins.  Some brahmins even use scripture to remind the lower castes that they (the brahmins) are still worthy of reverence even how objectionable their wrongs may be. The fact that people turn a blind eye to the abuses of many priests is testimony to the effect of brainwashing by many brahmins.

Evidences of cover-ups by brahmins in New York State have become common place.  Even when the Texas priest was convicted of rape, many priests in New York and elsewhere vigorously defended him as the victim who was seduced by three vile, loose women. In another case in Richmond Hill, Queens, priests again rushed to the defense of a fellow brahmin, denying that he ever did anything wrong, although he too was found guilty by the courts.

To cross the path of many brahmins is to incur their wrath, and face the threat of humiliation and abuse. In the 1960s, Swami Chinmayananda, one of the truly great saints in the last fifty years, suffered, what to ordinary people would have been a most humiliating experience at the hands of members of the Pandits Council in Guyana. Following the publication of a statement that he allegedly made to the press in which he stated that there is no place in Vedanta for castes, he apparently hurt the pride of the caste-conscious brahmin priests. They immediately urged the PNC government, to which they were closely associated, to declare the revered Swami persona non grata. 

Last year, while attending a wedding in Florida, I found myself in a heated discussion with a group of brahmins, who were not even priests; they were having a few beers.  In this discussion, one fellow in particular, launched a blistering attack against Swami Purnananda, accusing this wonderful man of some unspeakable crimes. I asked him why he was exhibiting so much hate and bitterness against the Swami
with all the scurrilous remarks. He said that the Swami had trained “Chamars” to perform religious functions that only brahmins should do. He went on to say that anyone can become a Swami, but one has to be born a brahmin. This is how foolish some of our people have become! A “beer-drinking Brahmin” questioning the authority of a Swami – what a mockery of Hindu dharma?

In North America, many Pandits (in the Caribbean community) enjoy pride of place in the community, and wield some level of authority with their congregation.  While the taste of power has been a strong motivating influence that has driven priests to jealously and to guard their territory; the economic incentive derived from performing rituals is an even stronger force.  A popular Pandit performs between four and five pujas during a typical weekend.   On an average, the performance of one puja earns a priest about minimum $100.  The math is easy to determine the tax-free benefit that priest earns.   Some priests are so choosy that they often indicate to the yagmaan the kind of dachna they are expecting. One can see why many of the pandits have banded (bonded) together to aggressively protect their exclusive club.  So when a so-called non-brahmin is attempting to "infiltrate", he is seen as an impostor and an intruder who must be excluded at all cost. 

As suggested, the training of competent priests is paramount to upgrade the standard of rituals performed. There is need for a reeducation of the masses to become more receptive to accepting well-education, competent, so-called non-brahmins as Pandits. Well-packaged articles, discussions, symposiums, prayer meetings (samelans) and the use of e-mails can be effective media to disseminate information.   If progressive so-called “brahmins” can be co-opted to join in the fight to help loosen the vice of brahminism it will be a very positive move.    

Mon, 13 May 2002 06:20:29

Pranaam: Lot of discussions is taking place in this forum, which are very interesting, even though 
sometimes dragging. Above referred article has brought to light some facts, which we all should be 
aware of while working towards Hindu Unity. Some thoughts on the subject are as follows: One does 
not become Brahmin by taking birth in a particular family.

By definition, 80% of the present day brahmins (so-called born brahmins) loose their status just 
by one act of irresponsibility towards animals due to consumption of its meat for pleasure. Like 
this, there are many other acts by which these fraudulent Brahmins loose their status. On the 
other hand, history and our own books have demonstrated that people of “low birth” which some 
perceive as Sudras have distinguished themselves as responsible brahmanas. One such person, in my 
opinion, is the present President of India - K.R.Narayanan.

 The fact that we all are members of 
this message group in itself should classify us into responsible persons willing to share and care 
for others feelings. We all are therefore, by definition brahmins – in context of the meaning of 
the term. But then again, I am not sure educated men and women, as in this group, would want to be 
labeled as brahmins because of the negative connotation of the term.

May 14, 2002 18:00:45 

Namaskaar:  As __Ji said, we are very fortunate to discuss such an important and painful matter. Many of our Hindu brothers and sisters would not have this opportunity. It is very clear that Brahmanism as practiced by many Pandits is an adharmic thing. In this day and age, as progressive Hindus, we should reject immoral practices such as Brahmanism. In fact, those who practice Brahmanism should be exposed. The “Brahmin Sabha” -- a group of men (most likely uncultured, and ignorant of Hindu ethics and morality) – that a member has identified here, should be exposed and challenged for misleading Hindus. It is mind-boggling how the “Brahmin Sabha” men who explicitly practice discrimination, have the courage to perform rituals for God. Is our God that foolish? I don’t think so! Karma, my friends, will not fail to catch-up with such exploiters of Hindu dharma, as it will surely catch-up with all of us. Let us follow the pramaan of Bhagvan Krishna and perform good deeds for the welfare of the Hindu society.    Let us not exploit Hindus under the garb of such backward and outmoded concepts as Brahmanism.

 We have more than one Scientists on this list, I am sure they will tell you without any reservation, that there is no scientific basis for caste. Classic genetic studies have been published in prestigious academic journals confirming the fact that there is nothing like a pure caste. There is tremendous genetic admixture among the different castes in India. In the Caribbean, not only is there genetic admixture among Hindus, but many of the immigrants took on names that were different from that of their parents. Some took on brahmin names and vice-versa. So Hindus should not be fooled by men bent on exploiting their pocket-books. 

On the question of Mandirs as community properties: I think that the consensus is that the Hindu samaj needs to find a way to ensure that the Pandit and his family or cliques do not become the judge, jury and executioner of the Mandir he attends. There needs to be accountability. But I am afraid that this would be elusive because I do not think that the first priority of Pandits is the Mandir. Their first priority is their wife and children. Thus, their priority is to acquire material things. Don’t believe what they tell you – “don’t be slaves for material objects.”  Because their wife-children priority, whenever things get tough economically with then, I feel the temptations would be high to get access to the Mandir account – if a good system of accountability is not in place. There are too many Mandirs without proper management and accountability systems. I think we should call for more women priests (Panditas) and advocate more or our young men and women take up Sanyas.

Despite what have been written on this forum, I don’t think anyone would disagree that there are no exceptions out there. Indeed, there are probably many morally upright Pandits. This is a good thing. Their voices need to be heard.

Views of the late Shri Gora Singh – kathak exponent

"Writing in the Caribbean Daylight (February 26, 1996), the late Shri Gora Singh, the well-known kathak exponent from Guyana, in an article entitled, “Caribbean Hindu Temples should clean up their acts” stated: “…in all this mess, where do he Pandits feature. If some of them are not at the root of the problem, the rest of them are timid and fearful in expressing their disapproval, but then we must understand that ninety-five percent of them only became Pandits when they arrived here in New York. This ninety-five percent are not qualified to preach from the singhasan …The majority of temple premises are white elephants to the community. They open their doors once a week, and other than the Sunday services one can attend, they hardly provide any tangible service to our community…Should each temple be investigated by the IRS? Will such investigations develop a sense of accountability…”